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	<title>Comments on: Informal Learning&#8217;s on first, Whats on second, and I Don&#8217;t Give a Damn is on Third</title>
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	<link>http://www.thetrainingworld.com/wp/roberts-learning-and-development-editorials/informal-learnings-on-first-whats-on-second-and-i-dont-give-a-damn-is-on-third/</link>
	<description>Robert Bacal&#039;s Commentary and Learning Materials For Trainers, Managers, HR</description>
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		<title>By: Jess Sanders</title>
		<link>http://www.thetrainingworld.com/wp/roberts-learning-and-development-editorials/informal-learnings-on-first-whats-on-second-and-i-dont-give-a-damn-is-on-third/comment-page-1/#comment-1452</link>
		<dc:creator>Jess Sanders</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Nov 2009 21:52:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetrainingworld.com/wp/?p=649#comment-1452</guid>
		<description>I am a student in Allison Rossett&#039;s graduate course on Instructional Technology at SDSU.  She shares your distaste for the &#039;informal learning&#039; label.  As a class assignment, she asked us to investigate the claims about twitter and social learning, and we started a discussion on the topic.  We would very much appreciate your comments and involvement.
Please consider stopping by http://pinotnet.ning.com/group/microblogging and sharing your thoughts and opinions!
thanks!  I will continue to enjoy your blog posts!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am a student in Allison Rossett&#8217;s graduate course on Instructional Technology at SDSU.  She shares your distaste for the &#8216;informal learning&#8217; label.  As a class assignment, she asked us to investigate the claims about twitter and social learning, and we started a discussion on the topic.  We would very much appreciate your comments and involvement.<br />
Please consider stopping by <a href="http://pinotnet.ning.com/group/microblogging" rel="nofollow">http://pinotnet.ning.com/group/microblogging</a> and sharing your thoughts and opinions!<br />
thanks!  I will continue to enjoy your blog posts!</p>
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		<title>By: Robert Bacal</title>
		<link>http://www.thetrainingworld.com/wp/roberts-learning-and-development-editorials/informal-learnings-on-first-whats-on-second-and-i-dont-give-a-damn-is-on-third/comment-page-1/#comment-1435</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert Bacal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Oct 2009 19:32:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetrainingworld.com/wp/?p=649#comment-1435</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m looking for some guest contributors, so if you want to use us as a venue, let me know, and I&#039;ll set you up with access.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m looking for some guest contributors, so if you want to use us as a venue, let me know, and I&#8217;ll set you up with access.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve</title>
		<link>http://www.thetrainingworld.com/wp/roberts-learning-and-development-editorials/informal-learnings-on-first-whats-on-second-and-i-dont-give-a-damn-is-on-third/comment-page-1/#comment-1434</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Oct 2009 17:55:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetrainingworld.com/wp/?p=649#comment-1434</guid>
		<description>No Website, other than the convenience domain I use to share files and documents. I&#039;ve been entertaining setting up a Blog, but haven&#039;t justified it by my criteria:

1. Have something interesting to say that&#039;s worth talking about - not sure I&#039;m in that place.
2. Write well - my style is more brain vomit than comfortable prose.
3. Ultimate litmus: Would I read it - I probably wouldn&#039;t.

That said, I think for nothing else but improving performance for #2 - if I can find folks that will provide great feedback - I might get something setup.

Have been tossing around the idea of a set of pieces on toxic leadership practices and the contexts where the level of impact of the practice varies. Maybe it&#039;s time for me to start writing for personal development purposes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No Website, other than the convenience domain I use to share files and documents. I&#8217;ve been entertaining setting up a Blog, but haven&#8217;t justified it by my criteria:</p>
<p>1. Have something interesting to say that&#8217;s worth talking about &#8211; not sure I&#8217;m in that place.<br />
2. Write well &#8211; my style is more brain vomit than comfortable prose.<br />
3. Ultimate litmus: Would I read it &#8211; I probably wouldn&#8217;t.</p>
<p>That said, I think for nothing else but improving performance for #2 &#8211; if I can find folks that will provide great feedback &#8211; I might get something setup.</p>
<p>Have been tossing around the idea of a set of pieces on toxic leadership practices and the contexts where the level of impact of the practice varies. Maybe it&#8217;s time for me to start writing for personal development purposes.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert Bacal</title>
		<link>http://www.thetrainingworld.com/wp/roberts-learning-and-development-editorials/informal-learnings-on-first-whats-on-second-and-i-dont-give-a-damn-is-on-third/comment-page-1/#comment-1433</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert Bacal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Oct 2009 15:21:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetrainingworld.com/wp/?p=649#comment-1433</guid>
		<description>To be clear, I don&#039;t think there is a grand scheme, but I do think there are some shared elements amongst the vocal that are scary. The hidden (and not so hidden agenday) behind almost all of the vocal &quot;experts&quot; is that they want to put &quot;control&quot; of learning in the hands of learners. This is primarily a political agenda (much like the humanistic agenda of the 60s-80s), and NOT a learning agenda. It hasn&#039;t worked, and it doesn&#039;t work, at least to the extent they want it to.

Most have no background in learning theory, or in the history of education and training, so they can&#039;t avoid the mistakes of the past. They are the &quot;true believers&quot;, and for that reason (and their ignorance about things they need to know about), that I don&#039;t want them anywhere near children, schools, or in any position of influence in fostering learning, because, also as I said before, we can&#039;t afford them.

We harmed countless people with the shift to &quot;self-esteem&quot; in education, not realizing that true self-esteem comes from accomplishment, not protection from failure!

And, now we will shift to &quot;nobody knows best about what and how to learn than the learner&quot;, which is clearly a pile of horseshit (no offense to my neighbor hourses). We can&#039;t afford this.

There are certainly elements of usefulness in all fads and trends, but as I said elsewhere it is the vocal experts who are damaging their own causes by linking to political agendas rather than learning ones, and making almost daily errors in the material they put forth.

Steve, do you have a blog or website?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To be clear, I don&#8217;t think there is a grand scheme, but I do think there are some shared elements amongst the vocal that are scary. The hidden (and not so hidden agenday) behind almost all of the vocal &#8220;experts&#8221; is that they want to put &#8220;control&#8221; of learning in the hands of learners. This is primarily a political agenda (much like the humanistic agenda of the 60s-80s), and NOT a learning agenda. It hasn&#8217;t worked, and it doesn&#8217;t work, at least to the extent they want it to.</p>
<p>Most have no background in learning theory, or in the history of education and training, so they can&#8217;t avoid the mistakes of the past. They are the &#8220;true believers&#8221;, and for that reason (and their ignorance about things they need to know about), that I don&#8217;t want them anywhere near children, schools, or in any position of influence in fostering learning, because, also as I said before, we can&#8217;t afford them.</p>
<p>We harmed countless people with the shift to &#8220;self-esteem&#8221; in education, not realizing that true self-esteem comes from accomplishment, not protection from failure!</p>
<p>And, now we will shift to &#8220;nobody knows best about what and how to learn than the learner&#8221;, which is clearly a pile of horseshit (no offense to my neighbor hourses). We can&#8217;t afford this.</p>
<p>There are certainly elements of usefulness in all fads and trends, but as I said elsewhere it is the vocal experts who are damaging their own causes by linking to political agendas rather than learning ones, and making almost daily errors in the material they put forth.</p>
<p>Steve, do you have a blog or website?</p>
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		<title>By: Steve</title>
		<link>http://www.thetrainingworld.com/wp/roberts-learning-and-development-editorials/informal-learnings-on-first-whats-on-second-and-i-dont-give-a-damn-is-on-third/comment-page-1/#comment-1431</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Oct 2009 11:53:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetrainingworld.com/wp/?p=649#comment-1431</guid>
		<description>Hmm... I don&#039;t think that Bersin, Cross, Masie, or any of the other vocal pundits supporting the next big thing are bad people, nor are they unintelligent or uneducated. In almost every way I look up to folks with this ability to communicate and draw hypotheses.

I&#039;ve been trying to make my own sense of all this talk and I am not quite there. I think there&#039;s something to just about everything that ends up as a trending topic. But I can&#039;t yet make the logical connections between the terms, conceptual theories of application, and the practical application in my contexts.

Perhaps this wave isn&#039;t about a grand new scheme of control, technology, and change. Maybe it&#039;s an opportunity for folks to reconnect with the things we&#039;ve forgotten about. That it&#039;s not about the technology or about the shift in control, it&#039;s about remembering that we are dealing with people. That the learner and performer are centric elements (the centric element) in the end game. The concern for the dollar has outweighed the concern for long term impact to the detriment of both the dollar and people. There are few that don&#039;t feel the overwhelming drive to change &#039;something&#039;.

Maybe the talk of social and informal are just a way for folks to say &#039;hey, it&#039;s about people, stupid - wake up.&#039; I see a great force multiplier in preparing and empowering folks to take control of their own direction. Giving folks the tools to learn. Empowering performers at all levels to share what they know with others. Making it easy and acceptable to connect with peers and mentors. Making it clear how to seek out feedback and the many ways to process that feedback for improvement. Stuff we should be doing all along, but have made excuses for not doing so. There&#039;s seems to be a focused opportunity to confront those excuses and barriers. 

There has to be something to it. Maybe that something isn&#039;t anything new at all. But there&#039;s value in figuring out how to fit new opportunities to old problems. I agree we need to use real supported cases and unexaggerated claims, but I&#039;m unconvinced that the trend doesn&#039;t hold some value.

Good discourse either way. Let the debate rage on.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmm&#8230; I don&#8217;t think that Bersin, Cross, Masie, or any of the other vocal pundits supporting the next big thing are bad people, nor are they unintelligent or uneducated. In almost every way I look up to folks with this ability to communicate and draw hypotheses.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve been trying to make my own sense of all this talk and I am not quite there. I think there&#8217;s something to just about everything that ends up as a trending topic. But I can&#8217;t yet make the logical connections between the terms, conceptual theories of application, and the practical application in my contexts.</p>
<p>Perhaps this wave isn&#8217;t about a grand new scheme of control, technology, and change. Maybe it&#8217;s an opportunity for folks to reconnect with the things we&#8217;ve forgotten about. That it&#8217;s not about the technology or about the shift in control, it&#8217;s about remembering that we are dealing with people. That the learner and performer are centric elements (the centric element) in the end game. The concern for the dollar has outweighed the concern for long term impact to the detriment of both the dollar and people. There are few that don&#8217;t feel the overwhelming drive to change &#8216;something&#8217;.</p>
<p>Maybe the talk of social and informal are just a way for folks to say &#8216;hey, it&#8217;s about people, stupid &#8211; wake up.&#8217; I see a great force multiplier in preparing and empowering folks to take control of their own direction. Giving folks the tools to learn. Empowering performers at all levels to share what they know with others. Making it easy and acceptable to connect with peers and mentors. Making it clear how to seek out feedback and the many ways to process that feedback for improvement. Stuff we should be doing all along, but have made excuses for not doing so. There&#8217;s seems to be a focused opportunity to confront those excuses and barriers. </p>
<p>There has to be something to it. Maybe that something isn&#8217;t anything new at all. But there&#8217;s value in figuring out how to fit new opportunities to old problems. I agree we need to use real supported cases and unexaggerated claims, but I&#8217;m unconvinced that the trend doesn&#8217;t hold some value.</p>
<p>Good discourse either way. Let the debate rage on.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert Bacal</title>
		<link>http://www.thetrainingworld.com/wp/roberts-learning-and-development-editorials/informal-learnings-on-first-whats-on-second-and-i-dont-give-a-damn-is-on-third/comment-page-1/#comment-1429</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert Bacal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Oct 2009 03:02:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetrainingworld.com/wp/?p=649#comment-1429</guid>
		<description>That could be one way to look at it. Or one could simply say something is social if it occurs in the presence of one other person. But you&#039;d have to deal with people by proxy (phones), and on and on.

The reality is doing formal definitions is a incredibly mind-bending process, the complexity of which, none of these people grasp.

As for what they would agree with, I don&#039;t know. It&#039;s hard to take any of them seriously, so I&#039;m not sure I care.

As for common meaning, I think we can actually examine that empirically, so I might give that a go. At least it would be fun, and if it works out, we&#039;ll all have things to think about.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That could be one way to look at it. Or one could simply say something is social if it occurs in the presence of one other person. But you&#8217;d have to deal with people by proxy (phones), and on and on.</p>
<p>The reality is doing formal definitions is a incredibly mind-bending process, the complexity of which, none of these people grasp.</p>
<p>As for what they would agree with, I don&#8217;t know. It&#8217;s hard to take any of them seriously, so I&#8217;m not sure I care.</p>
<p>As for common meaning, I think we can actually examine that empirically, so I might give that a go. At least it would be fun, and if it works out, we&#8217;ll all have things to think about.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert Bacal</title>
		<link>http://www.thetrainingworld.com/wp/roberts-learning-and-development-editorials/informal-learnings-on-first-whats-on-second-and-i-dont-give-a-damn-is-on-third/comment-page-1/#comment-1428</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert Bacal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Oct 2009 02:58:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetrainingworld.com/wp/?p=649#comment-1428</guid>
		<description>Steve, that sounds good. Please keep us/me informed as to the status of your work.

I&#039;m not sure that the &quot;recognized&quot; thought leaders are backing off from the zeal that makes them sound incredibly ignorant and stupid. The particular thought leaders I come across are adept at using social networking platforms to get their messages across, and as a result have developed large followings, based on 1) their zeal and 2) their manipulative expertise.

I suspect the real thought leaders are working more quietly in the background, and hence they don&#039;t have and may never have the influence of the expert zealots, simply because they aren&#039;t interested in marketing themselves via social media.

It&#039;s amazing. I was looking at Josh Bersin, and have also looked at Jay Cross and Elliot Masie, and after spending less than 30 seconds on their sites or reading quotes, I&#039;m wondering why people don&#039;t catch their errors.

The most common is misinterpreting data, but, golly, you must want to be a true believer to swallow the swill these folks dish out.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steve, that sounds good. Please keep us/me informed as to the status of your work.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not sure that the &#8220;recognized&#8221; thought leaders are backing off from the zeal that makes them sound incredibly ignorant and stupid. The particular thought leaders I come across are adept at using social networking platforms to get their messages across, and as a result have developed large followings, based on 1) their zeal and 2) their manipulative expertise.</p>
<p>I suspect the real thought leaders are working more quietly in the background, and hence they don&#8217;t have and may never have the influence of the expert zealots, simply because they aren&#8217;t interested in marketing themselves via social media.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s amazing. I was looking at Josh Bersin, and have also looked at Jay Cross and Elliot Masie, and after spending less than 30 seconds on their sites or reading quotes, I&#8217;m wondering why people don&#8217;t catch their errors.</p>
<p>The most common is misinterpreting data, but, golly, you must want to be a true believer to swallow the swill these folks dish out.</p>
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		<title>By: Milan Davidovic</title>
		<link>http://www.thetrainingworld.com/wp/roberts-learning-and-development-editorials/informal-learnings-on-first-whats-on-second-and-i-dont-give-a-damn-is-on-third/comment-page-1/#comment-1427</link>
		<dc:creator>Milan Davidovic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Oct 2009 18:10:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetrainingworld.com/wp/?p=649#comment-1427</guid>
		<description>&quot;Accessing information about another human being, overtly or not&quot; would be an explanation for &quot;being social&quot;, yes?

If so, do you think that the informal/social learning crowd would at least agree with you on the point that learning and being social are inherent human traits?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Accessing information about another human being, overtly or not&#8221; would be an explanation for &#8220;being social&#8221;, yes?</p>
<p>If so, do you think that the informal/social learning crowd would at least agree with you on the point that learning and being social are inherent human traits?</p>
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		<title>By: Steve</title>
		<link>http://www.thetrainingworld.com/wp/roberts-learning-and-development-editorials/informal-learnings-on-first-whats-on-second-and-i-dont-give-a-damn-is-on-third/comment-page-1/#comment-1426</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Oct 2009 17:36:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetrainingworld.com/wp/?p=649#comment-1426</guid>
		<description>I largely agree with you here, Robert. I think the discourse, regardless of perception of tone, is healthy and necessary to shaping any emergent approaches and opportunities. 

I think that the views of thought leaders (and real leaders:)) are maturing to the point of regression away from techno-zealotry and refocusing where they need to be - on people and what people need. I believe the new terms (L2.0, Informal, Social) indicate a latent epiphany (one I hope we will soon see.) There&#039;s a lot of crap out there. I built some of it. Admitting to fault is a necessary step to evolving perspective.

Within my organization, I&#039;m working out some conceptual materials that I hope will articulate the stovepiping and result of snake-oil sales over the past couple of decades. The maturation processes and churn have served to compartmentalize solutions and have marginalized the healthy things that happen in the organization. 

I categorize things like this:

1. Traditional (the solution classes that the organization is most used to)
2. Non-traditional (emergent stuff that the organization hasn&#039;t integrated into the traditional set)
3. Natural (the stuff that happens regardless of strategy or resource allocation)

I&#039;m trying to express to the organization that our focus on traditional and our flighty focus on non-traditional elements, without a systems focus, has caused us to lose grip with natural structures. We&#039;ve convinced ourselves and our customers that we own learning. This, combined with other factors, has caused the erosion of the apprentice  journeyman  master structures in the organization and we&#039;re losing top end qualifications (and the people that are able to propogate and grow more solid performers) at an alarming rate.

We shouldn&#039;t try to control the stuff that occurs naturally, necessarily. But we should work to adjust the culture to make things work smoothly. We should fish for people when that works best, teach people to fish when that works best, restock the pond if needed, and just leave things alone the rest of the time - while maintaining awareness of the needs and reality of the worlds of work that we serve.

I can dig it, Robert. But I do think there&#039;s value in exploring how we can best serve each of these categories. This might include exploring, validating, testing, and evaluating emergent technologies that support the things we&#039;ve been doing for centuries without technology. And as you point out, it&#039;s always good to connect what we think we know, or think we have discovered, with what has been proven by previous efforts.

Steve</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I largely agree with you here, Robert. I think the discourse, regardless of perception of tone, is healthy and necessary to shaping any emergent approaches and opportunities. </p>
<p>I think that the views of thought leaders (and real leaders:)) are maturing to the point of regression away from techno-zealotry and refocusing where they need to be &#8211; on people and what people need. I believe the new terms (L2.0, Informal, Social) indicate a latent epiphany (one I hope we will soon see.) There&#8217;s a lot of crap out there. I built some of it. Admitting to fault is a necessary step to evolving perspective.</p>
<p>Within my organization, I&#8217;m working out some conceptual materials that I hope will articulate the stovepiping and result of snake-oil sales over the past couple of decades. The maturation processes and churn have served to compartmentalize solutions and have marginalized the healthy things that happen in the organization. </p>
<p>I categorize things like this:</p>
<p>1. Traditional (the solution classes that the organization is most used to)<br />
2. Non-traditional (emergent stuff that the organization hasn&#8217;t integrated into the traditional set)<br />
3. Natural (the stuff that happens regardless of strategy or resource allocation)</p>
<p>I&#8217;m trying to express to the organization that our focus on traditional and our flighty focus on non-traditional elements, without a systems focus, has caused us to lose grip with natural structures. We&#8217;ve convinced ourselves and our customers that we own learning. This, combined with other factors, has caused the erosion of the apprentice  journeyman  master structures in the organization and we&#8217;re losing top end qualifications (and the people that are able to propogate and grow more solid performers) at an alarming rate.</p>
<p>We shouldn&#8217;t try to control the stuff that occurs naturally, necessarily. But we should work to adjust the culture to make things work smoothly. We should fish for people when that works best, teach people to fish when that works best, restock the pond if needed, and just leave things alone the rest of the time &#8211; while maintaining awareness of the needs and reality of the worlds of work that we serve.</p>
<p>I can dig it, Robert. But I do think there&#8217;s value in exploring how we can best serve each of these categories. This might include exploring, validating, testing, and evaluating emergent technologies that support the things we&#8217;ve been doing for centuries without technology. And as you point out, it&#8217;s always good to connect what we think we know, or think we have discovered, with what has been proven by previous efforts.</p>
<p>Steve</p>
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